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Let this be the catch all for the upcoming series between the Tribe and bosox. I look forward to this series.

There are numerous things to discuss--I would like to start with a bit of a comparison of the presumed starters in games 1 and 2. I define quality starts below as at least 7 innings pitched giving up 3 earned runs or less.

Sabathia--34 starts-20 Quality--3.21 ERA--1.14 WHIP
Carmona--32 starts-20 Quality--3.06 ERA--1.21 WHIP
Beckett---30 starts-15 Quality--3.27 ERA--1.14 WHIP
Dice-K----32 starts-13 Quality--4.40 ERA--1.32 WHIP

There has been some talk, at least from Cleveland friends that Boston will move Schilling up to start game 2. If so:

Schilling--24 starts-7 Quality--3.87 ERA--1.25 WHIP

Not trying to make any statement here as to who has advantage in these critical first two games. Managers leave certain pitchers in longer and bullpens may have more useful 6th and 7th inning guys.

Anyway, let this be a start---and trust me, I despise the fact that I had to actually count to come up with the above stats though doubtless that info is easily attainable from some site at the click of a mouse.

I was looking to see it there was any chance that Wakefield could be back for this series. It does not look good. I like the idea of him as insurance but I can not easily find how the Injuns hit him.

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Thanks for posting here, Prof, I had forgotten this thread existed. I had hoped it, the thread, would be definitive, catching all remarks from both sides of the horsehide debate. Though this has not been the case I feel certain that many hordes have come here, have seen the thread title and have thought deeply on this important series. It's just that sometimes thoughts do not translate into actual words and the jousting, well, the lances remain stuck in a pile of dirt, at least I hope that's a pile of dirt--it's dark though and there's a lot of cows in the neighborhood.

No hubris from me boys--Boston is one win away from gaining an advantage in this protracted combat.

My thoughts---
if you had told me that CC and Carmona would not make it out of the 5th inning in their two starts and the Tribe would have a one game advantage after 3 I would have doubted your sanity.
That game 2 in Fenway--I swear to God it was torturous. Imagine, if you will, a Tribe fan witnessing the insertion into the game of Tom Mastny (not a BAD pitcher mind you, but not one you count on, you understand) in the bottom of the 10th to face Ortiz, Manny and Lowell. Imagine too that the Tribe fan makes a reasonable assumption that the game is about to be over. After that amazing 1-2-3 you enter the top of the 11th in a sort of fog, part "what just happened here" mentality of wondering how Mastny went unscathed and part the fact that this game has been interminably long already. The top of the 11th then becomes some sort of Saturday morning cartoon inducing nervous giggles as well as the confounding fact that Trot Nixon once again has offered offense. You begin to think that "There is a God" or rather that there are baseball gods and they are apparently passed out in a drunken stupor, or lying collectively in backroad ditches as other travelers pass them by precisely because they know who they are.

Regardless of how this series goes from here on, it very well might be that bottom of the 10th that will be committed to my memory. It was so completely unexpected. Mastny was offered as some sort of sacrifice and he bit the knife-wielder on the hand and escaped.

Good stuff, this Baseball, but so freakin' long and torturous it is---and you look back and feel that you have just wasted the last 5 1/2 hours playing a video game or something.

Good post, biggie; actually, it's been almost the entirety of games two and three that have been nightmares for me. I'm watching the Sox hit the ball on the screws right at people so many times that I've lost count. I'm watching the Indians getting so many folks on base on seeing-eye rollers and infield bleeders that I'm appealing to a higher authority to even these things out. I'm seeing Jake Westbrook, the very definition of mediocre, toss a career game on the biggest stage of his life.

Ah, well....perhaps it ain't meant to be this year.

JD Prof. Longhair Wrote:***Warning: Non-astute message board comment follows***

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You are just going to ride that "astute" thing until it drops aren't you
I am a little apprehensive about Wakefield pitching against this crowd. He, when sharp and rested, was the stopper mid-season. He stepped up and stopped at least two slides that I remember offhand. I have heard that knuckleballs dance better in humidity. Here's hoping.
Last night, I wonder why Coco Crisp does not bunt more in situations like he faced. Bases loaded, 1 out, sinker pitcher looks like a bunt would be the best bet.
The Red Sox have had tough luck in the RISP department. Youklis hit one on the button, Sizemore snagged it.
Varitek just missed his pitch with the bases loaded 0 out. Crisp bounced into a double play. Using 20-20 hindsight I definitely would have liked not a suicide but a squeeze. I was pulling for it before the DP. I would have promptly forgotten my call if he had hit one into the gap

I would take slight issue with what you guys just wrote--granted, this "issue" is from the pov of a Tribe fan.

Westbrook--"the definition of mediocre"---well, that might be correct, but it sounds much worse than it is. Westbrook started this season horribly, went on the DL, came back horribly then turned it around with good performances towards the end of the season. I would call him a classic middle of the rotation starter--a # 3 starter, if you will--a position he almost certainly would have on the Red Sox staff as well. He's fairly easy to chart though, depending on his sinker--if he's on, he's really on, and this has been the case for several years and if he's off he's really off and you know it pretty soon. He is, though, a very fine major league starter, no not an ace or a 2, but a solid pitcher whom almost any team would like very much to have.

Yeah, the Red Sox have hit some on the screws alright but so have the Tribe.

"Seeing eye rollers and infield bleeders" give me a break, '74--you're better than that. I do, though, respect the fact that Ortiz hit one on the screws in the 8th last night against Betancourt and that if Trot were still playing right field it would have probably hit him in the head and Ortiz would have legged it out for a triple, being too winded to attempt an inside the park homer.

Quote:You are just going to ride that "astute" thing until it drops aren't you

it is what I do, son.

sawks fan told me the other day that Wakefield has, by virtue of his sheer longevity, had more chances to make amends for utter pitching folly than perhaps any other player in franchise history

Whether to turn down the sound and lose the crowd noise or turn it up and listen to Tim McCarver's drivel. That is the question.
The director of this ever been a fan I wonder. The game is on, he decides to run the prerecorded manager interview (in which there is absolutely nothing of interest. Byrd and Wake going well...blah blah) meanwhile something is actually going on on the field.
They might have figured Wake out. Will Francona figure out that they figured Wake out.

5th inning from hell.....

Followed by a 6th inning with back-to-back-to-back solo home runs


(Too bad those solo home runs don't count for more than one)

biggie 4 Wrote:I would take slight issue with what you guys just wrote--granted, this "issue" is from the pov of a Tribe fan.

Westbrook--"the definition of mediocre"---well, that might be correct, but it sounds much worse than it is. Westbrook started this season horribly, went on the DL, came back horribly then turned it around with good performances towards the end of the season. I would call him a classic middle of the rotation starter--a # 3 starter, if you will--a position he almost certainly would have on the Red Sox staff as well. He's fairly easy to chart though, depending on his sinker--if he's on, he's really on, and this has been the case for several years and if he's off he's really off and you know it pretty soon. He is, though, a very fine major league starter, no not an ace or a 2, but a solid pitcher whom almost any team would like very much to have.

Yeah, the Red Sox have hit some on the screws alright but so have the Tribe.

"Seeing eye rollers and infield bleeders" give me a break, '74--you're better than that. I do, though, respect the fact that Ortiz hit one on the screws in the 8th last night against Betancourt and that if Trot were still playing right field it would have probably hit him in the head and Ortiz would have legged it out for a triple, being too winded to attempt an inside the park homer.

I went back and looked at Westbrook's record, and he's had a good second half of this season. Not sure he'd be a no. 3 in Boston, b4, but your point is well-taken.

It hasn't been just the Ortiz shot in the 8th of game three...I'm thinking also of the bases-loaded, none-out situation in the second inning of that game. After Varitek popped up, Lugo hit a smash directly at Peralta for a double play. Six feet either way and it's a two-run single. Even more importantly, Youkilis, with a chance to win the game in the ninth inning of game two with a RISP and two out, hit a screamer to dead center field for the third out. There have been a few others which escape me at the moment.

WRT to the "bleeders and tweeners", I probably should have called it "situational hitting"; I realize it sounds like sour grapes (and perhaps it is), but I counted five in game 2, two of which preceded Peralta's blast, and, after the opening single of the inning in the middle of game three, the Tribe scored the two winning runs without benefit of the ball leaving the infield. In the seven-run outburst in game four last evening, the second run scored when Wakefield deflected an almost certain double-play ball into an infield hit. I missed much of rest of the inning, but the seventh run scored on a bloop single to center field.

The Tribe gets full marks because, unlike the BoSox, everyone is producing in this series. Peralta's two dingers could be said to be expected, but when Blake and Lofton hit them out in situations to take the lead, that's the sign of a team firing on all cylinders. With Cleveland up 3-1 and neither Sabathia nor Carmona with a win, it speaks volumes of the quality of the pitching staff. If the Sox can't come back and take this series, I hope the Indians go all the way.

For you frustrated bosox fans--I'd recommend Bill Simmons game 4 diary--link hopefully below. I understand your frustration, I really do. Simmons, btw, is hilarious--no, he ain't no expert but he is one very funny fan. I quote a post from him about Manny's "preening" at the plate after hitting that third consecutive homer. Despite my intense respect for Manny, if I were the Cleveland manager I would have ordered my pitcher to put one in his ear in his next AB.

11:18: Mark from Philly offers an inspiring defense for Manny's home run preening: "When Manny went deep, my first thought was, 'Quit posing, Manny, we're still down 7-3.' Then it dawned on me that Manny probably had no idea what the score was. In fact, he probably isn't aware that baseball games are determined by which team scores more runs. Manny's only point of differentiation comes when, after hitting a home run, he sees his teammates waiting for him at home plate -- it's at that point he knows it's time to go to the strip club."


link http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sto...ons/071016

Yeah, I know the link doesn't work and, no, I'm not going to bother to invest the time in figuring out how to fix it. Note--it is usually at the this point where some mod or admin sort steps in and makes a post saying simply, "fixed that link for you biggie."

Did want to respond to '74 though---re. Westbrook--if you study his stats over the last 3 years or so you might even be more convinced of his status. This year was a weird one for him--don't mean to belabor this but he's pretty solid--just didn't want folks to think that he's some sort of Joe from Kokomo who had the pitching performance of his life the other night.

As far as everyone producing for the Tribe--the whole management philosophy here is the so-called 1-9 approach. Personally, I don't think there's anything unique about that--the idea is that you have pop at all points in the lineup. Overall though, this team has had a down year in the hitting department. This is a core that is only two years removed from being the "hitting monsters" of '05. The fact that their hitting is being disregarded by some is at least partly the fault of the observer. That said, this has been an abyssmal year for Hafner and a bit of a subpar year for Sizemore. Martinez has been the ONLY consistent bat.

It's really quite odd--those explosions like in the 11th the other night and the 5th last night surrounded by nothingness has been a trademark of this team. It's really pretty maddening for a follower. On paper, based on 3 years of stats, they look to be as sound a hitting club as can be found in baseball--certainly not the monster middle of the order of the Red Sox, but a very high tier hitting club. What they have produced this year though is strange to say the least.

No offense but I hope this club can finish Boston off in Cleveland. Boston is just way too good to let off the hook.

None taken, biggie...best of luck to you.

The press is all over Manny for pointing out that being eliminated would not be the end of the world; while true is not supposed to be part of athlete-speak. He also said that anything can happen. The press is focusing on the former.
Manny does seem to be oblivious to the press, his fans, the opposing players. I am not sure that he is really brilliant at anything is except hitting a baseball to say the least.
In years past, his watching his shots soar over the wall would have gotten him at least one fastball around his cap bill. I don't know if the latino players (him and opposing pitchers) are that traditional. I wonder if he really even sees it as showing anyone up.

So much has been written about "Manny Being Manny" and all that, Fayette. Honestly, I don't know what the man is oblivious to--but it would seem to be a great deal. I guess you noted my reaction above as to how to handle that ridiculous moment in game 4--as to "putting one in his ear."

I know this---Cleveland manager Wedge almost certainly would not do this, and for that he is probably a better man than I, certainly a less emotional sort.

I also know this--the folks who should be most disturbed by "Manny Being Manny" are Red Sox players and fans. But, you know, they have, in a way, so carefully cultured that "Manny" persona--not that they were wrong in so doing--quite frankly, it might be the ONLY way to keep that marvelous Baseball idiot-savant performing at a high level.

He is what he is, I guess; and I don't know whether that's "part pose-part real" or simply a ridiculously overpaid athlete who is reveling in and trying to increase the size of his own myth at the expense of his own team or what.

I'm pretty sure that Manny is the antithesis of the team athlete however and the argument over whether he's worth the trouble or not will rage again if the bosox are eliminated in this round.

It is, though, an absolute fact that he has always "raked" at the Jake--loves it there and is quite comfortable. You know, in a weird sort of way, I wonder if he's not actually pulling for Cleveland.

to call ManRam out to lunch would be a gracious gesture. if you read the transcript of that interview you would wonder why he's playing baseball at all. it takes a guy like ManRam to make a guy like Ricky Williams look locked in and focused on his craft. ye gods, what a dummy

If you haven't read this, you really should. Ben McGrath of The New Yorker wrote a long piece on Manny before the start of the season:

Link

You learn more about Ramirez in this article than you would from anyone in the Boston press...

I read that article some time ago, Spike, and it is a very good read, though perhaps longer than many would like.

I would like to shift the focus a bit, if I may, and direct a few points at people who genuinely have a "rooting interest" in this series, '74 specifically.

I know that you, uh that would be the Maryland cat transplanted in West Virginia, made a point a month or so back of bemoaning the poor hitting with runners in scoring position of the Red Sox. A couple here, namely myself and Fayette, somewhat took you to task over that. I submitted that "momentum" was the big thing, specifically momentum in a given series--in essence, at the right time. Obviously, to this point, the Indians seem to have that momentum--they also have a pretty good statline re. RISP.

Obviously, in the microcosm that is a playoff series stats tell a story. I still think momentum tells a bigger story though--and--that can shift on the smallest of things.

This has been a surprising series in many respects--Cleveland's edge, if they had any, was in the perceived dominance of two starters who have yet to perform well. The "murderer's row" aspect of Youkilis, Ortiz, Manny, Lowell has been proven to be, quite simply, the most fearsome in baseball. And yet, Cleveland leads 3 games to 1. So, we should not be "surprised" that this series is surprising, nor should we be surprised by any series.

Writers will say that it has been the failure of the other 5 batsmen in the bosox order and that it is the performance of their counterparts on the Indians that have told the story so far. It's hard to argue with that.

I find it fascinating to attempt to get inside the heads of performers on the verge of giving a critical performance--to imagine the mix of emotions felt by young pitchers like Beckett and Sabathia in an important game. Certainly I can only imagine what it's like at that level but I have some fodder for comparison in my own life--though sports-related incidents are so far back as to almost be a false memory. With me, it's easier to relate to the proper use of words in big money deal or some such.

And Manny---well, Manny should be celebrated for what is, perhaps the greatest righthanded hitter of his generation---but he should also be either raised up or denigrated for what he is too, depending on your take on team sports and all that--a pretty much ridiculously distracting flake.

Manny celebrates the success of others on the team too much to be the uncaring moron that he is portrayed as. I read the piece before and decided that as mixed blessings go, I would rather see him coming to bat for my team more than I would like to see him playing right field for the yankmees.
Baseball has a long history of having flakes as players (Rube Waddell, Rabbit Maranville, Dizzy Dean, Jimmy Piersall... Their numbers have dwindled as salaries have risen. It is good to have colorful characters in the sport.

Entirely too much baseball being discussed in this thread. Nothing about trips to the North End or day trips to RRHOF. No clue what was on the playlist at the dentist's office this morning, or if the wall of shame at the Florabama has been recreated? Biggie suggesting some literary piece is too long for this crowd? Why do I bother to come here anymore?

Seriously, a good thread and I applaud Fayette for his role in shaming the irregulars into doing some posting.

Any predictions for tonights game?

I say Beckett's back is fine, Sabathia pitches better than his last outing, but Boston wins this one to send the series back to Fenway.
Let me also add, the world won't end today even if Boston does lose. But if they do, Manny's batting helmet will catch on fire from too much pine tar and burn his dreads.

I'm not saying Boston wins the series, but I think they'll win tonight.

As to predictions, I'm not good at that. Obviously Boston MUST win this game, so that is often a motivator.

I did see a blurb somewhere that a female country music singer was singing the National Anthem and God Bless America at the game tonight and that the woman, never heard of her but that's not surprising, is a former girlfriend of Josh Beckett. The Indians' brass deny knowledge of this fact---saying, "how the heck are we supposed to know who Josh Beckett dates?" If true, I find it both funny and interesting.